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The "Under Average"

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Rob Harrison

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2006
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An idea presented by one of the SRAC reps (name to be released by himself) is starting to gather favorable responses from various decision maker's. It is in fact being discussed at the SRAC meeting in Chicago.

I named it the Under Average, a simple calculation of the final qualifying order of "every" race, taking the total amount under the index, divided by the number of cars, giving an "average under" say -62 under, to set the permanent hit point.

If the average is -60 or below, nothing changes.

The top 1/2 is suggested as a better average under, divided by 8 of the 16 car field, instead of 16, which may be a better indication of the "safe zone" so to speak.

With this in place, the altitude factors stay the same and the mineshaft hits are reduced (Belle Rose this year)
 
Under Avg

Rob,
That is so simple. Too easy... should help with the weather variables from track to track... Div to Div. Has anyone been running the numbers this year to see what difference it WOULD have made? As a low buck guy I would see it as a blessing. I would have less fear of a major investment in a class being wasted in another Div or by better/quicker air mass than I would ever have a chance to race in.
Adger Smith
 
I say phuck all the bastards that can go .60+ under and then wanna cry about index hits anyway!!! I say Hit um fast, hit um hard, keep hitting um until your all .50 under cars like God intended!!!! Then we could just go boat racing in the river of tears that would be left behind.... Comp is just like American politics everyone involved just want to manipulate the system to benefit themselves. And just like our tax system all of the "index rich" bastards will just get richer while us middle class bastards will continue to endure the weight of the rules that are imposed....

Vote No on proposition "Under Average" its just more pork for the "index rich"

I'm Pete Adams and I approve this message......
 
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Rob Harrison said:
An idea presented by one of the SRAC reps (name to be released by himself) is starting to gather favorable responses from various decision maker's. It is in fact being discussed at the SRAC meeting in Chicago.

I named it the Under Average, a simple calculation of the final qualifying order of "every" race, taking the total amount under the index, divided by the number of cars, giving an "average under" say -62 under, to set the permanent hit point.

If the average is -60 or below, nothing changes.

The top 1/2 is suggested as a better average under, divided by 8 of the 16 car field, instead of 16, which may be a better indication of the "safe zone" so to speak.

With this in place, the altitude factors stay the same and the mineshaft hits are reduced (Belle Rose this year)
Click to expand...
Great idea the fast cars would not be sandbagging wanting the average high.
 
under average

i thought this was a good idea from the first time i looked at it---this is calculated in qualifying,but as i said to Rob--what happens when you get good air in qualifying and the average is set -then Sunday rolls around and the conditions are 10 percent better than the 2 qualifying days??this happened in Belle Rose this year--it caught alot of guys,Hickey and 5 or 6 others, it seemed that some bailed early ,not wanting the hit, others took it and paid the price, there is a solution here -hope we can find it--;)
 
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I kind of agree with Pete. All this will do is make it easyier for the fast cars and with this in place the indexes will rarely get hit. One of the biggest probs in comp(besides redlights) is the fact that people protect thier index till death and it makes for boring racing.If people would race to the stripe and not give up runs to save index the CIC system would work as intended and -.50 would be a outstanding run.

When I raced C/A back in 2000 a .50 under run was something to be EXTREMELY proud of... Now the way everybody protects thier index a .60 under run barely raises a eyebrow. This will just continue the trend of no index hits....
 
over under

remember how hard it was to find 10 hp back then in c/a, now some of the cars just turn up the boost, its not the same as it was,we are only trying to protect index from hits in unreal conditions and at races in the winter months, my car loses a ton in the heat and poor summer air,and haveing a restricted carb only makes it worse,we have to live with what others cars do at those events, i doubt your turbo car really cares much about the conditions, and i do agree most turbo cars are a handful, only because they have to make perfect runs,on less than perfect tracks, turbos,blowers, nitrous, keep making more and more power to be competative with an index that keeps getting hit ,in my opinion, right or wrong,
 
This is an advantage for the fast cars period. This plan will never work. I think adding .05-.10 back on everyones index is a good idea. This will help everyone out, make the -45 to -50 guys under competitive and the fast cars and the guys with the odd combos will be faster. This hurts nobody and helps everyone.

The guys who continues to lose races to protect their index can continue to do so. And the guys who win and are willing to lose a little here and there can continue to win.

The bottom line is this will help keep guys racing comp and could bring a few more into the class. And lets face it, the guys that win now will always win and the guys that don't, still won't.

Adding to indexes should not happen very often. Once every 10 years or so.

Billy Williams
 
ken reich said:
remember how hard it was to find 10 hp back then in c/a, now some of the cars just turn up the boost, its not the same as it was,we are only trying to protect index from hits in unreal conditions and at races in the winter months, my car loses a ton in the heat and poor summer air,and haveing a restricted carb only makes it worse,we have to live with what others cars do at those events, i doubt your turbo car really cares much about the conditions, and i do agree most turbo cars are a handful, only because they have to make perfect runs,on less than perfect tracks, turbos,blowers, nitrous, keep making more and more power to be competative with an index that keeps getting hit ,in my opinion, right or wrong,
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are just making a stronger point for why this is a bad Idea. APM, BBAT, etc.and such classes are the ones that need index adjustments the most and often. This system would only help to protect those indexes while the people were just "turning it up". Granted John Mohovitz is always fast but in Fontana a fatest street car NOS guy took the top spot with a 6.30 which was like .730 under in comp but If he would have showed up at Shakedown at Etown he would have watched himself get pushed off the ladder because all the NOS guys are going 6.0's and some even 5.90's.

All Im saying is some classes need to be hit to adjust them properly, not protected so more people have index in the bank. I'm tired of all you index in the bank muterphuckers while I'm over here bouncing checks.........

And another thing that kills me is you said he is allready bringing this up at the meeting this weekend but this is the first that I've heard about it and I thought I was in the know. Holly totalitarian rules comity or should I say The Commission!!!!!!!!!! Next thing you know your gonna get knee capped for not lifting at 1000 ft. I think I have finally lost my phucken mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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comp 670 said:
I kind of agree with Pete. All this will do is make it easyier for the fast cars and with this in place the indexes will rarely get hit. One of the biggest probs in comp(besides redlights) is the fact that people protect thier index till death and it makes for boring racing.If people would race to the stripe and not give up runs to save index the CIC system would work as intended and -.50 would be a outstanding run.

When I raced C/A back in 2000 a .50 under run was something to be EXTREMELY proud of... Now the way everybody protects thier index a .60 under run barely raises a eyebrow. This will just continue the trend of no index hits....
Click to expand...
You can't have it both ways, Pete wants the slaughter to continue until everyone is -50 under, well the truth is, only the fast cars will be -50 under. Mark will continue to pursue -60 under, cause he can, until it takes 3 parachutes to stop it, meanwhile, the large majority of Comp racers stay home.

The -60 under CIC system has worked for Comp, except in extraordinary conditions, altitude and mineshafts, this averaging calculation takes care of that and it helps both the slow and fast guy's.

It's a tough crowd, this Comp group, if we put Pete as president, ya think we'd finally get all the whiner's to shut up and pull their wrecks outa the garage and go -40 under racing, just like the good ol' days?
 
Rob Harrison said:
You can't have it both ways, Pete wants the slaughter to continue until everyone is -50 under, well the truth is, only the fast cars will be -50 under. Mark will continue to pursue -60 under, cause he can, until it takes 3 parachutes to stop it, meanwhile, the large majority of Comp racers stay home.

The -60 under CIC system has worked for Comp, except in extraordinary conditions, altitude and mineshafts, this averaging calculation takes care of that and it helps both the slow and fast guy's.

It's a tough crowd, this Comp group, if we put Pete as president, ya think we'd finally get all the whiner's to shut up and pull their wrecks outa the garage and go -40 under racing, just like the good ol' days?
Click to expand...

We could always have a -.40 under nationals race instead of allstars.... But seriously what you are telling me and what I'm missing is that..

>we cant adjust a few classes properly because of unlimited horsepower advantages

>So instead we need to just protect the fast cars so that a turbo car doesnt win every weekend?

>And that if every single car that showed up at a race could only go -.40 under this would not be good?

>Not to mention how far under does your car go? thought so!!!! U my friend are part of the problem, that I am talking about..... Stop thinking about your self and Imagine what it would be like to just race somebody to the stripe every time lined up. I think u know deep in you red and black communist heart it would be awesome....
 
I have accepted that some people in a class are just better at it then others Like Brandon and I. My philosophy is I understand that I am not as fast as he is so that if he adjusts the index down tell hes .50 under I would only be .40 under. But the truth is that he has demonstrated the standard in the class, and it is my Job to play catch up. there is no mercy for the slow in heads up racing like prostock which I was under the impression comp was suppose to be "no break out racing". The super classes are in place for people that wanna bbq and never pull off a valve cover. Comp is the Shit, where the Big Boys play....And dont cry about big bank takes little bank because I think Brandon is the primmest of examples about what can be done with skill and determination verses over inflating a budget in an attempt to hide ones inability...

They Turbo cars will eventually hit the index enough believe me, and it will happen sooner then later as everyone jumps on the band wagon thinking there are unlimited in possibility...

There is always the common sense answer that says if your scard of mine shafts dont go to them, we all know what tracks are fast enough to be dangerous...

Altitude adjusted tracks are the only place I see where there is room for improvement in the system
 
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PeteAdams said:
We could always have a -.40 under nationals race instead of allstars.... But seriously what you are telling me and what I'm missing is that..

>we cant adjust a few classes properly because of unlimited horsepower advantages

>So instead we need to just protect the fast cars so that a turbo car doesnt win every weekend?

>And that if every single car that showed up at a race could only go -.40 under this would not be good?

>Not to mention how far under does your car go? thought so!!!! U my friend are part of the problem, that I am talking about..... Stop thinking about your self and Imagine what it would be like to just race somebody to the stripe every time lined up. I think u know deep in you red and black communist heart it would be awesome....
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Part of what problem, blowing up more parts and making too many dyno pulls, to finally get the pile of garbage fast enough to be a problem....10 years of being a problem.

Funny, somehow I thought deep in my red and black communist heart, the whole idea of racing Comp was to be faster than the next guy.

Racing to the stripe is no longer allowed with the CIC system, take 2 tenths off the indexes.....oh no...not again with the racing to the stripe crying....not allowed in 2010 Comp.

The "Stop thinking about yourself" accusation, is the reason no one wants this rep job.
 
Never fear Rob I have the solution

Everyone should just have a C/A car!!!!!!!!!

See I can think about myself too...

And you know by Commie I mean Socialist and it is a direct dig a being a Canadian, not really a direct personal attack!:D

I agree u deserve the right to be fast but unfortunately some racers and classes had that right taken away from them in the past by the current system. Some did it to them self's some had it done with out their consent. So you cant just modify the indexing system because you are finally on the upswing of a class and you want to hold on to your advantage. What you should do or what I would do is hit the road make the rounds, rack the points and peruse a championship while u are in the position to win races. U have a unique advantage because I think you are the only car in your class at least that I know of, which makes me even less sympathetic to your cause.

But please dont feel that I am singling you out! so that you do not feel alone I am including a list of all the people I hate in this class.

LIST IS AS FOLLOWS
(if you race comp enter your name here)
 
You know, Pete, you remind me of a buddy of mine, Joe D'Ovidio, the Godfather of the East End, it's a love hate relationship.

No sympathy would ever be expected for the mess I created, and as in the world of index protecting and hitting, the pain is all the same, whether you're in C/A or C/AA or C/SM or C/SMA....you get the picture. And because of the difficult and expensive nature of Comp, the under average calculation is a better than nothing, step, for "all" of Comp.

For the most part, it is not going to come into play, the system will function as normal.
 
Pete with you on this one, if eveyone would just try to cut a decent lite and run to the stripe when they are covered by a tenth it would all equalize it self. I was listening to a conversation in the prostock pits a few years ago and Mr Glidden was telling a driver that he was working for at the time that had to race Greg Anderson when Greg had eveyone covered by a tenth and a half. Glidden told the driver that there was no way he could make up a tenth at the tree and the only way we could out run Greg was to drop the car off a 20 story building so just cut a decent lite and hope the other car has a problem or screws up. Well if I remember correctly Gliddens driver went 40 on the tree and Greg car would not shift.
How many times do we see a -400 under car racing a -600 under car and they go red, why not put the pressure on the -600 under car and keep them honest. Got to remember that when you are -600 under if you want to win the event you also will need to have a great lite and make it close at the finish [sounds like a bra ket race LOL}
Chris Lamb
 
Rob Harrison said:
You know, Pete, you remind me of a buddy of mine, Joe D'Ovidio, the Godfather of the East End, it's a love hate relationship.

No sympathy would ever be expected for the mess I created, and as in the world of index protecting and hitting, the pain is all the same, whether you're in C/A or C/AA or C/SM or C/SMA....you get the picture. And because of the difficult and expensive nature of Comp, the under average calculation is a better than nothing, step, for "all" of Comp.

For the most part, it is not going to come into play, the system will function as normal.
Click to expand...

But when it does come into play it only benifits the fast guys. how about on a 32 car feild u take the middle 16 and average them, why the top half..... Oh my god can u imagine having to take a permanent hit at -.48 under........ That would truly fix the class relitivly fast, which would get us back to some real racing, which in turn might keep people showing up to a race. I wish all the index bankers would just go play chess and leave the racing to the people that are willing to let their nuts swing low......

Were probably just not gonna ever see eye to eye on this one. which is surprising considering socialism is all about wealth redistribution, but it seems that when it comes to comp people have a very capitalistic mind set.... Its cool!!! I just think any implementation of new rule that does not quickly and effectively level the index margins in comp is simply pork for the "index rich" and really has no business being imposed. If you not gonna fix it, And I do mean really fix it, Just leave it the fuck alone....
 
If you have a 45 under car why would anybody want somebody in their class in a mineshaft hit your index and make you a 40 under car.In mineshaft races sick index`s might get sicker.
 
Adger Smith said:
Rob,
That is so simple. Too easy... should help with the weather variables from track to track... Div to Div. Has anyone been running the numbers this year to see what difference it WOULD have made? As a low buck guy I would see it as a blessing. I would have less fear of a major investment in a class being wasted in another Div or by better/quicker air mass than I would ever have a chance to race in.
Adger Smith
Click to expand...
So where does this fella's take on it fit into your index banker's theory? Seems he likes the idea of preserving his index within the current system we got. How can he think it's such a good idea and you think it's a rich index guy's game? He is a little guy.....
 
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