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Active Comp Racer

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Feb 8, 2013
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I think when considering index adjustments, they could have taken a common sense approach that would have solved 90 percent of the issue and left most indexes alone. Consider the following criteria for an index adjustment...


Phase #1: Common sense

1. Was the class index hit within the last racing season. If yes, then no index adjustment. If no, then move on to #2.

2. Was there a -.600 or faster run in the class within the last racing season? If yes, then no index adjustment. If no, then on to the next phase.

Before any individual run analysis can be evaluated, the above should be considered. Run the criteria above against all the index adjustments and I think you'll see a major improvement. Then you begin to dig deep and evaluate individual performances, qualifying positions, weather corrections, etc with the qualifying indexes that make it through for Phase #2.

Do I think they got it wrong, YES. It should have been left alone because quite frankly of all the crying around the class, index parity has not been a real topic of concern. Who knows, maybe it was a plan to gets us all off the payout gripe for a while. If so, it worked.
 
Active Comp Racer - I was trying to put some numbers to your "common sense" suggestions, and made it to Phase #1, Step 1 as follows:

In 2012, 35 Comp classes were hit permanent for a total of 1.52 seconds.

The Feb 4th 2013 adjustments included 63 Comp classes and totaled 2.33 seconds.

Out of the 63 classes adjusted on Feb 4th, 23 of them were hit in 2012.

That get's you down to 40 classes for a total Index adjustment of 1.52 seconds.

Special case: Since F/D was hit in 2012 and comes off the list, the adjustment for F/DA must also be eliminated.

So at the end of Phase #1, Step 1 . . . we are left with 39 index adjustments for a total of 1.48 seconds.


I've got all the 2012 qualifying data . . . so on to Step 2, but it will take some more work. Question for Active Comp Racer - do you already have the Step 2 results?

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
I do not, but with the common sense approach, 35 classes that took permanent hits in 2012 and already eliminated from adjustment. And they are...

C/DA, B/AA, K/A, DD/AT, I/D, F/D, D/DA, I/AA, I/SM, E/SM, H/SMA, E/SMA, B/DA, D/SM, A/SM, F/EA, C/TA, B/TA, L/A, F/A, D/SMA, G/EA, F/ED, D/EA, A/SM, D/AA, B/SMA, G/AA, E/D, B/SM, A/EA, G/ED, B/EA, PST/A, C/SM

22 classes not in the above section that ran -.600 or faster at a national event in 2012 are...

C/A, G/A, C/SR, L/AA, B/D, C/AA, A/AA, A/SMA, CC/A, C/ED, B/ED, E/A, I/SMA, A/ED, F/SMA, J/A, J/D, BB/AM, G/SM, E/ED, J/AA, H/EA

That puts the total # of classes not considered for a hit an index adjustment at 57 (out of 99 classes in comp) and we have not looked at a 2012 LODRS event yet. Moral of the story is that 60 percent of the classes are just fine without having to even scratch the surface. So let's look at who's left...

E/DA, F/DA and G/DA are new and are automatically out for consideration. So we're up to 60 classes eliminated without looking at runs at LODRS events.

Who's left?
Altered Planetary: A/AP, B/AP
Altered Classes: A/A, B/A, D/A, H/A, I/A
Altered Auto Classes: E/AA, F/AA, H/AA, K/AA
Econo Altered: NONE
Altered Truck Stick: PST, B/T, C/T
Altered Truck Auto: NONE
Street Roadster: A/SR, B/SR
Dragster Stick: A/D, C/D, D/D, E/D, G/D, H/D
Dragster Auto: A/DA
Econo Dragster: D/ED
Nostalgia Dragster: A/ND, B/ND
Super Mod Stick: F/SM, H/SM
Super Mod Auto: C/SMA, G/SMA
Pro Mod: A/PM, AA/PM
Other Power Adder: AA/AM, BB/A, AA/AF, BB/AF, AA/AT, BB/AT, CC/AT

More later. I only had an hour to spend on this. But it's already a pretty good argument that what they did while I'm sure hours of thought was put into this, it was basically a waste of time.
 
I went through all the 2012 qualifying sheets (Nationals and LODRS) looking for runs that were -0.600 or more under. Note: this does not consider runs during eliminations. I did not include official "Mineshaft" races, or events where permanent CIC was not at risk (Dutch Classic). 15 more of the 63 NHRA Feb 4th classes failed this Step #2 screen, reducing the previous 39 classes to 24 index adjustments for a total of +1.10 seconds.

Who's left, and how much for each?
Altered Planetary: A/AP +5, B/AP +5
Altered Classes: A/A +5, B/A +5, D/A +5, H/A +5, I/A +5
Altered Auto Classes: E/AA +5, F/AA +2, H/AA +2
Econo Altered: C/EA +5
Altered Truck Stick: PST +5, B/T +5, C/T +5
Altered Truck Auto: NONE
Street Roadster: A/SR +5, B/SR +5
Dragster Stick: G/D +5
Dragster Auto: A/DA +5, G/DA +5
Econo Dragster: D/ED +1, E/ED +5
Nostalgia Dragster: B/ND +5
Super Mod Stick: H/SM +5
Super Mod Auto: C/SMA +5
Pro Mod: NONE
Other Power Adder: NONE

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
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I screwed up I listed E/D in the who's left as well as the perm hits. it should only be in perm hits so I'm missing a class, I included altitude tracks and mineshaft. When looking at the overall scope you have to evaluate everything. It's all relative. More later.
 
Any class not contested in 2012 should not be considered, so we eliminate BB/AF, G/D, A/SR, BB/AT, C/T, I/A. Up to 66 out of 99 that are automatically eliminated based on this formula without even reviewing average runs or LODRS events.
 
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Thanks for doing this Active Comp Racer and Patrick Hale. Its funny how simple this approach is, how could they miss the mark this bad, its just simple statistics.
 
Reviewed points races. Add the following -.600 runs to be eliminated from consideration...

D/D, A/ND, BB/A, K/AA, C/D, H/D, F/SM, D/ED.

So now that puts the count of classes that shouldn't have been considered for index rebate to 74 out of 99. The next step would be to see of the 25 remaining classes, how many were not contested and how competitive the others are. Remember, uncontested classes in this evaluation would not be considered for review as there is no curent year data. If a protocol was established that required run data, that would eliminate any chance of a racer just calling to complain about the index.

For example, say I had an A/SR and complained about how stiff the index was. I call NHRA and they run a few simple procedures. they see that no one has run -.600, meaning no perm index hits and then they see no one has run the clas last year. Easy answer... "no, sir, we cannot evaluate any index until there is a season of run data to support such a request."

What could you possibly say to that besides "OK, thank you."

SUre the system could be manipulated, but it wouldtake lots of time, money and many cases, multiple teams to partake in the scheme.
 
Hey Clint - glad you joined in! Going back through all the data on DragRaceCentral is very time consuming. Wish I had Jim Collins' database. :rolleyes:

The answer to your question is found in the last two items below from NHRA.com -

"The method yields the following results:
  • 35 classes had runs of .650 or more under the 2012 year ending index and received no increase to the class index.
  • 10 classes had runs between .640 and .649 under the 2012 year ending index and received .an increase of .01 to the class index
  • 9 classes had runs between .630 and .639 under the 2012 year ending index and received .an increase of .02 to the class index
  • 4 classes had runs between .620 and .629 under the 2012 year ending index and received .an increase of .03 to the class index
  • 6 classes had runs between .610 and .619 under the 2012 year ending index and received .an increase of .04 to the class index
  • 14 classes had runs between .600 and .609 under the 2012 year ending index and received .an increase of .05 to the class index
  • 18 classes had runs.599 or less under the 2012 year ending index and also received an increase of .05 to the class index
  • The new E/DA, F/DA, and G/DA classes received the same increase as the manual classes; .00, .04, and .05 respectively."
So if we get rid of every class that ran -0.600 or quicker in the last two years that would leave 18 classes. And then add one more for G/DA since I think G/D would be on that list, to get 19 "dead" classes for index adjustment in 2013.

I got my list down to 24 classes in my last post. If I include the "Dutch Classic", we drop D/ED. Including the "Mineshaft" National race at zMAX in April get's rid of E/ED. That get's me down to just 22 classes. Without Jim Collins' database I can't reproduce his exact results.

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
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Acr

Looks like ACR can't follow the rules and has someone on the inside, or is on the inside, that can put his posts back up when I Soft delete them asking for a name. I think I know what is going on here. It is just like we all discussed when going to the full name disclosure. His posts don't mean that much if there isn't a real name attached to it.
So I guess that is just another slap in the face of all the good guys on this forum that follow the rules.
 
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The remaining players are...
A/AP: -.554 Tery Spargo
B/AP: Not contested in 2012. no index consideration
A/A: -.565 Dave Hughes
B/A: -.492 Pete Carbery
D/A: -.580 Mike Graves
H/A: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
I/A: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
E/AA: -.486 Todd Patterson: slower run but top half of field at topeka
F/AA: not contested in 2012. no index consideration
H/AA: not contested in 2012. no index consideration
C/EA: -.565 Dan Fletcher
PST: not contested in 2012. no index consideration
B/T: -.544 Scot Benham
C/T: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
A/SR: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
B/SR: -.585 Anthony Bertozzi
A/D: -.574 Ed Bennett
G/D: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
A/DA: -.531 Peter Hanratty
B/ND: -.569 Dean Carter
H/SM: -.55 Gary Wisecarver
C/SMA: not contested in 2012. no index consideration
G/SMA: not contested in 2012. no index consideration
A/PM: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
AA/PM: -.493 Steve Matusek. Under .500 but top half of field at topeka
AA/AM: Over the index Rodney Rosenteil
AA/AF: Aborted runs by Marty Ladwig
BB/AF: not contested in 2012. No index consideration
AA/AT: Not contested in 2012. No index consideration
BB/AT: -.463 Joe W. But same class Mihovetz went +1.00 in 2011.
CC/AT: not contested in 2012. No index consideration

All classes accounted for. Anything stick out like a sore thumb here that looks like it needs a major adjustment? I don't think so. But if this were to fly, consideration would have to be made for runs with a minimum standard under the index, like say -.300 or faster, so aborted runs and breakage do no skew the analysis.

Adger my no name post while against the rules is not hurting anyone. It's a simple statistical analysis of the class. I don't post on here so I chose to keep it anonymous to keep the post focused on the topic instead of spinning off into the multiple conspiracy theories a handful of idiots seem to incorporate into every post.
 
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This is all very interesting, but my question would be, why were the classes NOT CONTESTED in 2012 actually not contested??.. could it be that those classes took hits in the previous year or two that in turn made them non-competitive classes??.. and if so, why wouldn't they be considered for a return of index to make those classes inviting again..

How many guys built cars, only to have their index wrecked, and can't afford to change their combinations.. could that be where some of the car count went??
 
Names

I looked at the DCR archives ,for the winters back to 1998-the entries averaged 35 to 38 cars till 2007- then things started to fall off , there are alot of racers names that i dont see in other classes, manna retired ,Gillette in top sportsman, Lion retired, Johndal retired, Chamberlin, Morrison, Ramay, Zink,Stone, bret and tom brown, Ebbert, Ed schuck, Smithfeild,Deceglie, Huggins,Wilmoth,Gross is no longer with us , alot of racers, alot of reasons , there are 2 others who may enter yet this morning, maybe 27 cars ,not that bad considering names that are sitting,
 
"Common Sense" based Compromise

Active Comp Racer’s initial “common sense” ideas looked good, and I thought worthy of some time and analysis. In the end, Active Comp Racer is in the LEAVE COMP ALONE camp, and that’s great, and seems to be the feeling of about 90% of the “active comp racers” who responded to Clint Neff’s two poll questions.

I just wanted to finish this thread with a data analysis based “compromise” somewhere between the NHRA 63 classes for +2.33 second approach and LEAVE COMP ALONE. So it all came down to these three categories of Comp classes:

A) Any Comp class that had any racecar run –0.600 (or quicker) at any NHRA race (Nationals, LODRS, Altitude, Mineshaft, non-points, etc.) in the last 2 years would not be considered for index adjustment (the “common sense” approach).

B) Those classes with the best runs between –0.550 and –0.599 would have their Index adjusted to make them all basically –0.59x under players. For example, the best B/ND went –0.569 . . . so it gets +0.03 to bring it up to –0.599. And if the best run was –0.595, sorry . . . no adjustment.

C) All the Comp classes not in categories A) or B) get +0.05 back, uncontested or not.

This analysis of the data leaves 20 classes for index adjustments that total +0.86 seconds.

Altered Planetary: A/AP +4, B/AP +5
Altered Stick: A/A +3, B/A +5, D/A +2, H/A +5, I/A +5
Altered Auto: E/AA +5
Econo Altered: C/EA +3
Truck Stick: PST +5, B/T +5, C/T +5
Truck Auto: NONE
Street Roadster: A/SR +5, B/SR +1
Dragster Stick: G/D +5
Dragster Auto: A/DA +5, G/DA +5
Econo Dragster: NONE
Nostalgia Dragster: B/ND +3
Super Mod Stick: H/SM +5
Super Mod Auto: C/SMA +5
Pro Mod: NONE
Other Power Adder: NONE

This list does not match Jim Collins’ analysis because I don’t have a database as extensive as NHRA, but it should be close. There would be one class that needs to be removed from this list, but I can’t figure out which one it is . . . and I don’t want to guess. Thank you InsideCompRacing for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion!

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
Actually Adger I am the one that restored it cause regardless of name there was no shots being taken and I think all this info from ACR and Patrick Hale is very valid and i wanted to continue the discussion. NO i dont know who ACR is and dont really feel its important. If there would of been personal attacks then different story.
 
Charlie Yannetti you need run data to support how good or bad a class is. Go run it for a season and show everyone how bad it is and actually earn the index back. I know this is not the norm since handouts are expected. But to answer your question...

AA/FA, BB/FA are hermaphrodite classes. No one will ever run them regularly

H/A and H/AA is bad because it's too heavy for a modern day tube car and the 10.5 cu in super mod class still looks good comparatively speaking. FSM and FSMA start taking hits, you'll see activity in that class from the super mod cars.

I/A: 2 people have run the class since 2005. Cal Hill and Mike DePalma. One is in the automatic and the other went to another class that was softer. Could use some help though. Hit pretty good and went on to another class.

C/T: Same deal with DePalma. Left a -.60 class for an -.80 class.

A/SR: Lost a lot, but still -.60. Kind of like Nost Dragster clases... real good for a while but not good runs need to be made to be competitive. No stiffer than C/A in my opinion.

G/D: only 2 people ever ran that and they have not ran it in several years. Was about -.75 at the time though.

Covers about 95 percent of why the classes aren't run. 2-3 of them could probably use a look, but it was soft index in the first place that got them bombed.

PST: no idea. after no C/A help might be a viable option now.
 
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There is a possibility that you have missed my point.. In my opinion, the reason that there is no run data for those classes is because they have been beat up in the past to a point where no one in their right minds would attempt to run them, and racers have had the ability to move to another class..

I think that if my opinion could possibly be correct, those classes should be considered for added index to make them competitive again, not just disregarded..

I can appreciate your time and effort, along with Patrick Hale, but it may also be prudent to determine where some of these classes took their biggest hits, ie: altitude factored tracks, and some how figure that in.. unfortunately, this may require going back more than two years..

BUT.. if NHRA is not going to reconsider their formula and new indexes, all points and discussions are moot..
 
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