Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar

Comps problems , Facts and possible solutions

G

Greg Hogue

Member
Feb 4, 2006
381
17
18
63
Aledo Texas
We all know that comp is in deep trouble, with 19 cars at Pomona.

We need to talk about what the real problem is, and what we could do to save it


Facts
1st Less people are getting in to comp. few people understand it, and even fewer want to work that hard to race.
2nd people are dropping out of comp because of the staggering expense to do it
3rd pay outs are down, and in reality the same as other classes. NHRA and manufactures are never going to change that. Begging for more money will not help, they don't care and if the truth were know would love for us to go away. I

4th comp is getting insane with what it cost to do it.
Those are the facts now to some fixes

1st we need to be flexible, and looking for some way to fix the problem. The idea of not changing anything is ignoring the fact.
2nd we need to attract new people in to comp, and bring back some of the ones that have left.
3rd we need to let some innovators in to the class
4th we need to find our own sponsors, Pro Mod guys are Paying NHRA to race.
5th I have talked to 8 former comp racers , new people or people that would field a new car if we would find a way to make this more affordable.

New classes I would like to see

Econo/ spec headed classes
Same rules as the parent classes with 4 exceptions
1 spec CNCed head that according to the major cylinder head manufactory would be impossible to cheat. This manufactory is ready to go to NHRA and lobby for this class and possibly put a big contingency’s out there . this would not be a crappy head , but in the small block a 18 degree head with very modest air flow , as in 260 cfm
2 production deck height blocks
3 power glide transmission
4 analog ignition

Next class
Copo , drag pack and cobra jet car with the exact rune as in stock . they are already at the track and being teched these cars are in the 8’s already

Very limited BB/A style motors in dragster, but with a 8/71 blower instead of a 14/71 blower. I am currently involved in a two car BB/A team build up
Diesel classes , very limited and none of the smoking idiots Gale Banks Engineering , is ready to feild a car

Pro Stock car , and Australian Pro Stock car
 
Last edited:
Greg, Please stop... "We all know that comp is in deep trouble, with 19 cars at Pomona."

"Deep Trouble"??
19 cars at Pomona is not a reason to come up with 15 new classes. The Comp structure has plenty of classes to pick from. Find one that fits and build a car for that. We dont need any diesel dragsters or spec head classes. I actually think that we could get rid of a few classes and make things a little better. The fact remains that comp is not for everyone. It takes a mountain of work and a ton of time and money to race and even more to be competitive.

I think the answers or fixes are easy to figure out but hard to implement.... Qualifying money and payout increase. I dont think outside sources should have to provide that though.... How about pro racers pay entry fee and crew tickets-(No Free Stuff). There is not enough money as it is, so why do the people at the top get the free entry? Im sure if comp was free to enter there would be a few more at each race. How about they pay entry and we get in free? They are pros with sponsors, we do it for fun. Why the Fuck is that backwards?

Anyways, just an opinion. Take it or leave it....
 
Greg, I believe you are correct in that many changes need to be made, But if you review the stats below you may change your opinion of new Classes.

It looks like a survey of the top 160 or so competitors should be done 1st, and find out if they will leave the category if major changes are made. If they say yes, then there is nothing you can do, comp will just die a slow death. If they say "lets discuss major changes", then maybe it will work. Also, survey the contingency sponsors.

I believe this is a pivotal year for comp, NHRA has tried many changes, Fix mineshaft hits, add races, go to sportsman ladder and nothing seams to help.

All numbers are approximate using National Points standings.
These are Points earning drivers, not race cars.

2013---------2012-------2011

243................252...........264.......registered points earning racers/drivers at a event

36..................52............52...........racers only attending 1 event
40..................24............21.......... racers only attending 2 events

76..................76.............73.........Total racers attending 2 or less races


Total number of racers attending 2 or more events
167.................176...........191 so in 2 years down 24 racers

As you can see the trend is not good and I believe it is not just the money.

There seams to be enough classes based on the fact that there are 90+/- Classes and only 167 racers who attend more than 2 events.
 
With the upgrades to the CompLink timing system being worked on now I would like to see handicap qualifying in comp. It won't take any longer to run comp, it would help racers that don't get to many events get into E mode and the Bob Freys, in the tower, something to get the paying fans sitting in the seats excited about to watch at the stripe. The economy now is the biggest problem for most people and this costs nothing.
 
My major change would be to make qualifying Important again by doing all of the following,

A pro ladder would be put into place so qualifying #1 is a good thing.

Contingencies are paid to #1 & 2 qualifiers, not race winners or runner ups. Currently you do not have to be the fastest to win (just the best strategist)
I think this would then make qualifying a big competition for engine builders (some cars may not race eliminations, who cares, they are showing up and paying the entry, almost like a race within a race)

Qualifying order is laddered off National points for Q1 and then off run order for Q2 and on like the pros

The eliminations laddered is reordered after every round of eliminations so 1st Bye goes to #1 qualifier, 2nd bye goes to #2 qualifier and so on.

Qualifying counts toward permanent index hits (Eliminations still work as they do now, index hit will take effect Monday after event.

Mineshaft rule uses all runs for the event, so if there are 32 cars and during qualifying and eliminations runs, you have 16 cars run .610 or under mineshaft is in effect (free .05). Also, there is a double mineshaft 16 cars, .66 under (free.10), and triple mineshaft (16 cars .70 under) (free .15)

More details will be necessary, but this is the general Scope,
Please point out the bad about this so we can discuss.

1 argument I will not accept is, "the sportsman ladder brings out more cars", If so, why are we loosing so many cars?

Yes, I have many more ideas, but I think this would create the most interest and maybe bring more Sponsor interest because Being #1 is now a big thing.
 
Roger, your suggestion for qualifying to count towards permanent index hits is counter productive to your suggestions for awarding contingency money for the #1 and #2 qualifiers and going to a Pro ladder where #1 would race #32, or, at Indy, #64. Comp racers aren't going to risk a permanent hit to qualify #1. Just my opinion.
 
Comp

The one and only year that I toured the USA racing was in 1999.
As I see it now the cost, just to attend each race, has gone up atleast 3 to 4 times the amount it did in 1999. That alone has reduced the number of people attending races. I think the structure that NHRA has in place to have grade points also keeps the number of participants down. Just too much to pay out to attend and too much to do. The grade point system was a good solution when they had too many racers trying to attend, but now it is just another problem. Just the system lowers the number of racers that are eligable to attend National Events. It is the number of racers in that elligable group that are cutting back and not attending. The numbers showing those that attend only one or two races should show you that the elligable group is not growing. GP system needs some modifications or some... whatever!!
 
Last edited:
Those are good points , Adger , that have absolutely nothing to do with the state of Comp or how to save it . The cost of going to the races , towing , rooms etc. is the same for whatever you got in the trailer and the grade point system , with lower participation , does not allow a racer to enter a nat'l , at the last minute , even if he had the car ready to go and could afford to go . This may affect Comp more than other class , getting the car ready to race is not a matter of charging the battery and putting fuel in it , 10.000 rpm and everything that goes with it , takes it's toll on parts and pieces......just to race it. So when you got that all done and paid for , you can't enter the race cause you haven't raced enough , you have to be a little crazy to run Comp , maybe that's the reason Comp participation is down.....we aren't developing any new crazy's .
 
Let's say I'm an expert target shooter. I spent tens of thousands on dollars on my rifles, scopes, ammo and practice over the years. I contend for the win at every event. Now, suddenly they let some redneck with a 12 gauge and bird shot in to the competition and he runs off with the money. How long am I going to stick around? And did they really gain a competitor? Or just replace one with another.

If comp is going to die it is because of things outside of our control, let's just not poison it to death.
 
compfan1 said:
Roger, your suggestion for qualifying to count towards permanent index hits is counter productive to your suggestions for awarding contingency money for the #1 and #2 qualifiers and going to a Pro ladder where #1 would race #32, or, at Indy, #64. Comp racers aren't going to risk a permanent hit to qualify #1. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...


Bill, I think originally Comp Indexes were set off of the fastest run for that class, it did not matter when you made that run, no CIC, no temporary, no mineshaft.

My reasons for using qualifying toward permanent are as follows.

1st, the object of a handicap system, whether in drag racing or golf is to level the playing field by using all of the info available to set the handicap, it is unfair not to use qualifying and only use elimination runs.

2nd, It does away with so called soft indexes / Runaway indexes.
The main purpose is to level the playing field. As a newbie to the strategies of comp in its current state, I have a hard time explaining to someone that has a race car that is a possible comp competitor or fan why our car slowed down in eliminations. (lifted so we did not hurt our index).

This will be hard to implement from the beginning because you will have some indexes corrected before others with this system, it will all work out and hopefully should help bring in new racers who want to run all out.
 
Last edited:
Brian Landies said:
Let's say I'm an expert target shooter. I spent tens of thousands on dollars on my rifles, scopes, ammo and practice over the years. I contend for the win at every event. Now, suddenly they let some redneck with a 12 gauge and bird shot in to the competition and he runs off with the money. How long am I going to stick around? And did they really gain a competitor? Or just replace one with another.

If comp is going to die it is because of things outside of our control, let's just not poison it to death.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head.
 
Brian Landies said:
Let's say I'm an expert target shooter. I spent tens of thousands on dollars on my rifles, scopes, ammo and practice over the years. I contend for the win at every event. Now, suddenly they let some redneck with a 12 gauge and bird shot in to the competition and he runs off with the money. How long am I going to stick around? And did they really gain a competitor? Or just replace one with another.

If comp is going to die it is because of things outside of our control, let's just not poison it to death.
Click to expand...

From Brian's post he is showing that the redneck was given an advantage of using a shotgun in a target shooting competition. From that I'm assuming he thinks adding new classes will give the competitors in those new classes an advantage by having a soft index initially.

Now lets change up his example a little to read....Let's say I'm an expert trap shooter. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on my shotguns, ammo and practice over the years. I contend for a win at every event. Now, suddenly they let some redneck with a Mossberg 12 gauge pump and bird shot in to the competition and he runs off with the money.

In this example it sounds like the redneck was a better shot than the guy who spent thousands of dollars on his Beretta shotguns. He was a better shot. It didn't have anything to do with how much money he spent. Isn't that what sportsman drag racing is supposed to be all about? Who is the best racer (best car + best driver) not who spent the most money. I totally agree it has to be fair and this may be where Craig is saying its easy to talk about but difficult to implement.

Am I missing the boat on it being that difficult to establish reasonable indexes for new classes?

I certainly don't want to do anything to poison the class but I don't want to see it die a slow death and have done nothing to prevent it.

This site is full of opinions. I have found that maybe two people will agree on any one thing. But its all talk no action. Are we just going to stand around with our dick in our hand or are we going to do SOMETHING?????????
 
get rid of the CIC, run them out the back door, the fans don't understand what's going on, and no Newb likes the idea of investing that kind of coin to show the world how smart they are..... just to get struck down by the "pen"

In any form of competition the "cream" will always rise to the top, the rest will moan, groan, complain and finally quit....its just the way it is

Trying to "level" the playing field as they say... will never work long term, even a blind man can see that
 
Getting rid of the CIC will not solve any problem, in fact IMO, it will become worse. The system was put in place to keep any single car or small group of cars from running away from every event. It also becomes a strategy game, to make it more interesting. The history of new classes with run away indexes is what scares so many people. We have classes for almost every imaginable combo out there, we almost certainly don't need more.

You guys need to ask yourselves a few other questions before trying to make all of these changes(some outlandish) to "save" the class. Do you understand that the economy is the sole reason that the sport is hurting in general. Car counts are down everywhere, and the NHRA still has 4-5 unsponsored races. The Pro fields are barely filling as well. Did you look at the stands in Pomona? Half empty. People just don't have the disposable income to attend these events. And that makes it harder to find people to crew on a car as well, with time off of work costing them $. So how many are there out there that have the income to build a comp car? How many will run one by themselves because they can't get help? How many can afford to drive 500 miles or more to several national events every year because Comp only runs at 2/3 of them now? I'm all for looking for ways to attract new competitors, but it's grossly unfair to attempt it by walking all over those who have already put their heart and soul into it.
 
Bill Diehl said:
get rid of the CIC, run them out the back door, the fans don't understand what's going on, and no Newb likes the idea of investing that kind of coin to show the world how smart they are..... just to get struck down by the "pen"

In any form of competition the "cream" will always rise to the top, the rest will moan, groan, complain and finally quit....its just the way it is

Trying to "level" the playing field as they say... will never work long term, even a blind man can see that
Click to expand...

This has to go down as the craziest idea ever! "Trying to level the playing field will never work?" Are you kidding me? It will definetely work! Have you ever heard of bracket racing? It has a level playing field & is as popular as ever! Most Comp racers would race is they: A) Feel like they have a chance to win & B) Have the funds to compete. MOSTLY (A) THOUGH!
 
You will never attract fans, they do not understand. they only ones interested is the "hardcore" individual that most likely will utilize comp as a stepping stone to pro-stock.

Fans don't watch bracket racing, you guys that have been in the game for awhile need to take the blinders off to see it for what it is

without fans no "sport" can survive

equalizing the competition so everybody has a chance is not working, its no secret who the "hitters" are and...comp has been sliding for years long before economics even came into play.

I don't have the answers just making observations form what I can see and hear

and I would agree there are too many classes already, comp does not need more
 
Last edited:
Sportsman drag racing has never attracted fans , it attracts people who want to try it , Comp is tougher and more expensive , throttle stop racing is for people who would never consider Comp but is challenging in it's own way . None of these sportsman classes , S , S/S , S/G , S/C , are for the fans , they are a challenge for the people that decide to do it . It has always been that way and trying to explain to the fans that they can't go faster than what is written on the window , or they lose , or they might not lose unless the other guy goes faster than what you wrote on the window , compared to you , well that's when they shake their head and walk away , it has always been that way . Sportsman racing has never been for the fans , it's for the people that decide to do it .

Comp takes this whole relationship with the fans to a new level of confusion , complicated , but the no break out , index ( handicap ) 800 in V8 chasing a 4 cyl , the fans don't totally understand it , but they like it . Problem is , you have to be wealthy and crazy to run Comp , the fans that do understand Comp are few and far between , but there are zero fans of the bracket racing , shoe polish , form of racing , there are only participants .

Clearly , Comp needs a series sponsor , or , like the new PDRA , we fund it ourselves , cost $500 per race , qualifying money paid , 1sr rd loser paid , every level of payout increased . If you can't afford the $500 ( over and above all other entry fees ) then don't go ( and you probably weren't going anyway ) This is a real solution to the Comp death march , somebody needs to take this concept and formulate a plan to implement it , maybe Pat Hale needs to engage this.........
 
econo mod

I have no dog in the fight, but I have to respectfully disagree with one statement. SPORTSMEN RACING HERE LOCALLY IN THE 70's USED TO HAVE BETWEEN A 1,000, AND 1,500 PEOPLE EVERY WEEKEND AT TWO DIFFERENT TRACKS WITHIN 100 MILES OF EACH OTHER!
 
That was 40 years ago + or - a few years. The past is a nice place to visit but you gotta move on dude.

Anybody wanna chime in one of Donny Baker's famous sayings?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back